People’s Deputy from «Servants of the People» Andrei Motovilovets: «The most important thing is to kill this scheme with platforms politically, because it is politically born»

SO CALLED “YATSENKO SITES” IS A CLASSICAL EXAMPLE OF POLITICAL CORRUPTION

— Andrei, for several days now the scandal that has erupted after the Committee’s meeting and the possible bribery of deputies who voted against the bill, which eliminated the authorized electronic intermediary between real estate appraisers and the State Property Fund, has been discussed. In your opinion, why no one manages to cope with these sites, although many allegations of corruption of such a scheme have already been voiced?

— When corruption is common, for example, in procurement, you have a chance to contact the Antimonopoly Committee, law enforcement agencies. The so-called «Yatsenko sites» is a classic example of political corruption. When deputies publicly pass the law and oblige you to pay them money. And you cannot complain anywhere.

Everything was done insolently. These are amendments that were put to the vote five times. This is when they showed to the whole country: «Guys, look, now we will steal your money.» I do not call it anything else.

Yesterday, we discussed for a long time on this subject with Lesha Sobolev — this is the director of Prozorro. Sales. And he cited the RAGS as an example. Imagine, you and I decided to get married. We carry a statement. And at the entrance to the RAGS we are met by four ambals representing four sites, and they say: «If you want to get married, give your passports, we will bring them yourself. You’ll pay 1800 UAH.» We ask: «Is it possible without you?» They answered: «No.»

So you can not stop only on the assessment of real estate. Let’s start earning money on marriage, on a driver’s license and other things.

— These sites are compared with the sites in Prozorro and offer to remove the monopoly in both cases. Before joining BP, you worked as an Operations Director at Prozorro. Sales. If you compare these sites, what do they have in common?

–What is the function of the sites in Prozorro. Sales? There is a direct mathematical relationship: the number of participants leads to an increase in prices for sales and a decrease in purchases. If the site knows that some company wants its production capacities to increase, she says: I am expanding storage facilities, I am interested in objects in the Dnipropetrovsk and Kharkov regions. As soon as an object appears for sale, for example, in a village in the Kharkov region, the task of the site is for all potential applicants to know about it. This is a paid job. Gather information about the object, advertise it, conduct tenders, raise the price, determine the winner, take a guarantee fee from it, bring it to the purchase — this is work for which you can pay money. In procurement — the same thing.

— And if the conditions are written for someone?

— The platform organizes access to the Antimonopoly Committee — and procurement is automatically blocked. This is all real business work. Unlike sites involved in real estate appraisal. They are created artificially. You guys should not exist there! De facto, under the normal management of the State Property Fund, which has already appeared there, you need to make an appraiser or notary’s office.

If we talk about sites related to real estate appraisal, then journalistic investigations showed that all these sites are controlled by one legal entity, behind which there is a politician. I don’t understand how this scheme can work after updating the Verkhovna Rada. We were probably chosen not because people wanted to watch other people on TV. They wanted a change. Our task is to make them. The problem, of course, is that evil is usually richer. Evaluation sites generate a million hryvnia per day. With this money you can hire super cool lawyers, PR specialists, bots to manipulate public opinion — to do anything.

Prozorro is a completely different thing. This is accountability, it is a shareholder represented by the Ministry of Economy, it is openness.

— Comparing Prozorro and automated electronic platforms for real estate appraisal, they speak of an equally written module. Can you explain in more detail what this is about?

— «Prozorro» and «Prozorro.Sales» are a two-level system. There is a central database to which 56 sites are connected. If the information comes to one of the sites, let’s say as I bring the lot to the KSCA, then it is distributed by the central base to everyone else. Instantly. Accordingly, any participants on other sites see this information. Because one of the principles: «All to pump everything.» At the same time, there is competition among the sites and among the bidders. Therefore, I do not see anything in common.

— Since it is impossible to register a sales contract without registering an assessment, not only appraisers, but also notaries are forced to enter the Unified Database of the State Property Fund. And everything happens through an appeal to these intermediary sites that need to be paid. Can you explain the essence of the services they provide?

— There are no services. You attach a file with an assessment, the platform sends it, receives a response and shows you. And for this you pay 1800 hryvnia. Previously, it was almost three times less.

After Yuzhanina’s amendments to the Tax Code, which stood on the podium, and the hall voted for them, all 4 sites immediately raised prices. Where they specifically wrote in the Tax Code that the sale of real estate can only be done through the submission of reports to the State Property Fund. And that a new independent platform cannot enter the market without the consent of the current ones.

People’s Deputy from the Servant of the People Andrei Motovilovets: The most important thing is to kill this scheme with platforms politically, because it is politically born 02

— Why not twenty hryvnias? What can justify such a cost?

— Monopolies, as a rule, do not justify their prices.

— There is one more problem that is actively debated today — manipulations of appraisers. Does the electronic module solve it?

— This module allows you to collect all the information. Suppose I live on Vinnichenko Street, and two apartments next to me were sold at 1 thousand US dollars per square meter. If I want to reduce the tax base and indicate that a square meter costs $ 100, the module will say no. If there are any reduction factors, you need to explain why they are used, and prove that this is appropriate. The appraisal market also needs to be regulated. This is the task of the SPF, he prescribes the rules of assessment to them, he must conduct an analysis and normalize their work. The sites do not solve the problem of manipulations by appraisers. They just make money. Much money.

— In a recent publication, the editor-in-chief of «Censor.NET» Yuri Butusov showed a total figure for a year and a half of their work — this is 677 million hryvnias. What did we pay for it? What will the state get from it?

— It’s definitely not necessary to manipulate the fact that, as announced at a meeting of the Yuzhanin committee, the tax base has increased. It increased due to the module, and not due to the sites.

At the same time, Prozorro and Prozorro. Sales are projects that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. When they were created, money was taken from donors. It happened like this. Donors give money for a pilot project, we build an IT solution on them, and then we give it to the state. Now all IT development has been transferred to the balance of these two state enterprises. That is, nobody asks for budget money.

In the case of sites, the module was created with budget money. And his constant support also costs the state money. It is necessary somewhere to post and store information, archive. This is necessarily the services of data centers.

Friends, you get 1800 hryvnias from each client, you can say for no reason, why does the state pay money to maintain the module? Maybe you yourself will contain it?

— Why does the state continue to support?

— I can not comment on the previous leadership of the SPF. I really hope that the current leadership will fix this as quickly as possible.

— They tried to write out bill No. 2047-d as a compromise. He is already the third in a row. They are invited to eliminate the monopoly of electronic platforms, and give citizens the opportunity to assess property without involving an appraiser, directly through the Unified Base of the State Property Fund. Attraction of an appraiser will be required only if the person does not agree with the assessment formed by the base. How can you characterize this document?

— Positive, precisely because it removes the appraisers and allows you not to use the site. This is really a way out of this situation.

Some of my colleagues say: «We are against the market valuation.» Well, here it is, and withdrawal from this market! Why don’t they vote for this project? What is the problem?

“Have you asked them?” Tell me, why did you even go to this meeting? You are a member of the Verkhovna Rada Committee on Freedom of Speech.

— I was at this meeting of the committee, because I was very surprised that as soon as there is an attack on real estate appraisal sites, there is an attack on the Prozorro system. I have often heard the phrase, even from the rostrum of the Verkhovna Rada: «There are also royalties of Nefyodov.» What kind of royalties are there? Rights are 100% owned by a state-owned enterprise.

Sometimes they say to me on the sidelines: «Well, it can’t be that a person creates a system and gets nothing from it.» I answer: «Imagine: maybe.»

— They talk a lot about the transparency of the system. But let’s be honest: there are enough frauds in tenders.

— Ukrainians are maximalists. Of course, I would like the Prozorro system to write out a suspicion after some kind of left auction and say: “Dear state customer, thank you for the auction, where you specified the conditions only for your company. Here is your suspicion, you are going to court. it’s better to go to jail right away. »

The system does not do this; it shows what is happening and how.

— This is done by law enforcement agencies that open criminal proceedings.

— Let them finish to the end. People are waiting for justice and landings! When this system was not yet, and I was an adviser to the Minister of Infrastructure, I remember one case in point. The port ordered paint for ships in barrels of 405 liters. The standard for the whole world was 400 liters, but 405 were needed here. Only two companies came, the rest were knocked out. So far we have requested documents for each participant to find out why they were deleted, two weeks passed. During this time, the money was paid, the contract is concluded. Now you do not need to ask anyone for anything.

People’s Deputy from the Servant of the People Andrei Motovilovets: The most important thing is to kill this scheme with platforms politically, because it is politically born 03

«PUBLIC DISCUSSION OF THIS PROBLEM WILL SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASE THE CHANCE OF QUICK ACCEPTANCE OF LAWS AND ELIMINATION OF SITES FOR EVALUATION»

— Why is the prime minister silent about the scheme with gasket pads? Private companies earn a million a day almost from the air, using the state, and everyone indulges them.

— Because we need a bill, they are written by deputies.

— The Cabinet of Ministers can also initiate a bill, there would be a desire. Doesn’t the prime minister have it?

— Right, maybe. But in order to submit a bill to the Verkhovna Rada, the Cabinet of Ministers needs to collect comments from all ministries. This is the task of the deputies, and we can do everything quickly. Everyone knows about this problem: those who sold or bought real estate, and those who simply read investigative journalism.

— It didn’t work out quickly. While we see only a scandal and a sea of ​​emotions. The first bill — No. 2047, the essence of which was to remove the sites, was introduced in early September. Why in this case did not work turbo mode?

— I would even say a hurricane of emotions. And this hurricane of emotions that has now arisen, we are obliged to remove the sites for evaluation, to increase professionalism and honesty in our state.

— How do you feel about the idea of ​​checking deputies on a polygraph?

— I do not see anything wrong with the polygraph test. Although, perhaps, it should have been carried out immediately. If you need me to go through a polygraph, I will definitely do it.

By the way, there is a practice of using a polygraph at enterprises where colleagues worked before joining parliament. For example, David Arahamia used a polygraph at the Ministry of Defense when they tested the guys who worked with the Ministry as a volunteer landing force. In «PrivatBank» the polygraph was used when applying for a job. The Dubilet worked there.

We are not judges, not prosecutors. We will not cross-examine. Yes, and what to ask? Have you succumbed to influence? Were you somehow interested? We have no evidence. But we understand how much money this scheme generates, and we have suspicions that there may have been financial motivation.

— Were you among the deputies who contacted the President’s Office regarding the bribery of deputies who did not support bill No. 2047-d?

— No, but after the committee meeting we examined this situation with the deputies who voted against the bill, tried to understand why it happened. Some of them confirmed that they hinted that there might be financial motivation.

— Did you give hints or offer money?

— They offered money.

— Someone paid?

“I have no evidence to say that.” I know people who definitely did not take this money.

— Where did the figure of 30 thousand dollars come from?

— Actually, the numbers are different — they offered some amount to the members of our faction, some to the members of other factions.

People’s Deputy from the Servant of the People Andrei Motovilovets: The most important thing is to kill this scheme with platforms politically, because it is politically born 04

— Can you name the order of prices?

— From 20 to 30 thousand dollars.

“Who more, members of your faction?”

— Yes. Our bill and us more.

— Were there any attempts to transmit information about this to law enforcement agencies?

— I think yes. But this is obviously the secret of the investigation.

— Why? Public people who turn to law enforcement agencies usually talk about this openly.

“It is a big mistake that they talk about it.” The evidence base of a law enforcement agency should be reliable and voluminous, respectively, they should have time and the ability to collect information. And people who offer money should not change their behavior after learning that a statement is written on them in NABU.

I hope that such a production has existed for a long time, and within its framework, law enforcement officers will receive new facts.

— The investigation was conducted on the sites by the National Police, SBU, NABU. No results have been heard on them yet.

— If we are talking about political corruption, NABU should deal with this.

— Anton Yatsenko publicly disowned the sites. He stated this on the air of Gromadsky. He called the statements that he was offering the deputies money «doggy delirium». It doesn’t turn out that now everyone will concentrate on clarifying relations within the faction and the scandal with possible bribery and generally forget about the scheme with platforms, but will it continue to work further?

«PUBLIC DISCUSSION OF THIS PROBLEM WILL SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASE THE CHANCE OF QUICK ACCEPTANCE OF LAWS AND ELIMINATION OF SITES FOR EVALUATION»

— Why is the prime minister silent about the scheme with gasket pads? Private companies earn a million a day almost from the air, using the state, and everyone indulges them.

— Because we need a bill, they are written by deputies.

— The Cabinet of Ministers can also initiate a bill, there would be a desire. Doesn’t the prime minister have it?

— Right, maybe. But in order to submit a bill to the Verkhovna Rada, the Cabinet of Ministers needs to collect comments from all ministries. This is the task of the deputies, and we can do everything quickly. Everyone knows about this problem: those who sold or bought real estate, and those who simply read investigative journalism.

— It didn’t work out quickly. While we see only a scandal and a sea of ​​emotions. The first bill — No. 2047, the essence of which was to remove the sites, was introduced in early September. Why in this case did not work turbo mode?

— I would even say a hurricane of emotions. And this hurricane of emotions that has now arisen, we are obliged to remove the sites for evaluation, to increase professionalism and honesty in our state.

— How do you feel about the idea of ​​checking deputies on a polygraph?

— I do not see anything wrong with the polygraph test. Although, perhaps, it should have been carried out immediately. If you need me to go through a polygraph, I will definitely do it.

By the way, there is a practice of using a polygraph at enterprises where colleagues worked before joining parliament. For example, David Arahamia used a polygraph at the Ministry of Defense when they tested the guys who worked with the Ministry as a volunteer landing force. In «PrivatBank» the polygraph was used when applying for a job. The Dubilet worked there.

We are not judges, not prosecutors. We will not cross-examine. Yes, and what to ask? Have you succumbed to influence? Were you somehow interested? We have no evidence. But we understand how much money this scheme generates, and we have suspicions that there may have been financial motivation.

— Were you among the deputies who contacted the President’s Office regarding the bribery of deputies who did not support bill No. 2047-d?

— No, but after the committee meeting we examined this situation with the deputies who voted against the bill, tried to understand why it happened. Some of them confirmed that they hinted that there might be financial motivation.

— Did you give hints or offer money?

— They offered money.

— Someone paid?

“I have no evidence to say that.” I know people who definitely did not take this money.

— Where did the figure of 30 thousand dollars come from?

— Actually, the numbers are different — they offered some amount to the members of our faction, some to the members of other factions.

People’s Deputy from the Servant of the People Andrei Motovilovets: The most important thing is to kill this scheme with platforms politically, because it is politically born 04

— Can you name the order of prices?

— From 20 to 30 thousand dollars.

“Who more, members of your faction?”

— Yes. Our bill and us more.

— Were there any attempts to transmit information about this to law enforcement agencies?

— I think yes. But this is obviously the secret of the investigation.

— Why? Public people who turn to law enforcement agencies usually talk about this openly.

“It is a big mistake that they talk about it.” The evidence base of a law enforcement agency should be reliable and voluminous, respectively, they should have time and the ability to collect information. And people who offer money should not change their behavior after learning that a statement is written on them in NABU.

I hope that such a production has existed for a long time, and within its framework, law enforcement officers will receive new facts.

— The investigation was conducted on the sites by the National Police, SBU, NABU. No results have been heard on them yet.

— If we are talking about political corruption, NABU should do this.

censor.net.ua

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